Stillborn - Carrying a baby to term with a fatal diagnosis

Well, hey, everybody, and welcome back to Qualified, the place where incredible people share their stories of overcoming great adversity and loss to inspire you and give you hope. I'm Michelle Heaton. A woman who's expecting a baby will experience so many different emotions. When the pregnancy is planned or hoped for, there's usually great joy and happiness, expectation and gratitude, but at the same time, there may be anxiety and fear about the future. What kind of parent will I be? Will we be able to afford all these new expenses? Will my child be healthy?

My guest today is more than qualified to talk about the emotional turmoil that comes with learning you're pregnant. She and her husband hoped to start a family one day and were blessed to learn that they'd have their first child back in 2017. She was a second grade teacher at the time, and her students were eager to share in the excitement with her, as were her friends and family. Then, an ultrasound at the halfway point revealed some very difficult news. The months that followed would prove to be some of the most challenging and painful ones in her life, and the emotions she would feel now are one she had never felt before. Besides being an incredibly determined and courageous woman, she is a wife, a mother and the author of some of the most beautiful blog posts I've ever read. She's also a devoted Christian whose faith would be truly tested during this trial. Her name is Katherine Yoder and it's my great honor and privilege to have her as my guest on the show today. Welcome to Qualified Katherine.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so glad to be here, of course.

Well, Katherine, this story is so involved and I want the listeners to understand all the details of what took place. So can you start by telling us about the day of the ultrasound and the news you received about your baby?

Yeah, so we had reached the halfway point and we had my parents and my sisters over at our apartment and so they were waiting for us to go and come back from the appointment so we could have a little gender reveal party, because we had decided to find out the sex of our baby in that appointment. So it was just like a really hopeful, exciting day and I remember even like choosing, like wanting to choose a cute outfit, that kind of thing, just because I was so excited for the occasion. And so we went and we're really excited and I couldn't wait to have that iconic profile shot of the baby, you know, just like the profile of the baby and like with the black background, and I was just so eager to see what my child looked like in the womb and couldn't wait to know more about my pregnancy and who was in there, so that we could kind of start dreaming with more direction. You know, are we are, we are we planning for a little girl or a little boy? And so when we got into the scan and the technician started scanning you know, scanning my womb and everything I remember being initially really disappointed because she started the scan and everything was grayscale, almost like when you turn to the wrong you know channel on a TV and it's just that fuzzy, gray and white and black dots everywhere and that's basically what the entire scan looked like. There would be a few moments where I could see a like a hand or an arm bone or leg bone, that kind of thing.

But I just was thinking in my head, man, like I must have come to a really low power, like a place with a really low power machine, and I was thinking like this technician must be really bad at her job, like she must not be using the right setting to kind of get that look. So she looked around for a while and I even mentioned, like man, it's so blurry it's hard to see anything, and she's like, yeah, you know, that was kind of all she said. She left the room and came back with another I think he was a doctor, I didn't know that at the time so just another technician or someone with her, and he took a look at it and at that point I started to get a little bit worried. And then he just turned to us and said your baby has no kidneys and this is not a viable pregnancy.

Oh my gosh, that is just so much to absorb in an instant. I can imagine your brain must have just been swirling with questions and confusion and you're thinking about a house full of people waiting for a gender reveal. How did you even react to that?

It was just like I'm just total shock. I don't think we said anything, I just was completely blank. It's just almost like being punched in the face, you know, and you're by someone that you would never expect that from and you're like I don't even know how to respond to this. So, you know, he kind of just repeated himself like there's nothing that can be done, like this is not a viable pregnancy and your child will either die in utero or shortly after they're born. And so it just went from being, you know, just this event that we could not wait for, to be just, you know, just this horrendous experience. And we just walked out of there, just completely blindsided, and really it just there aren't very many words that describe it.

You know, just, very we were just, we were so shocked, basically, and had to return home with that news to my family and that was very, very upsetting, knowing that they were happily waiting for us to come in. And we walked in the door and they're like you know what is it? What is it? And so excited, and I was just, you know, heaving sobs, you know, just couldn't breathe, couldn't talk, for just how devastated I was, and so really, that is that's the word just like utter devastation adhering the worst possible news that you could really hear in an ultrasound.

Right. Well, I am so sorry you had to go through all of that, going from what should have been a day of complete happiness and anticipation to a gut wrenching sensation and horrific news versus the joyful news that you were expecting. So you told me you saw your doctor shortly after the ultrasound and that she not only confirmed the condition of the baby but advised immediate termination of your pregnancy. How did you reconcile all of this new information in your mind, especially given the fact that at this stage, your baby was already moving and kicking inside you? Can you describe that tension between knowing your child was alive but that doctors were recommending you end his life?

Yes, yeah, it was a very. It was just, it was so dark it's kind of one of the words that feels appropriate for what was going on. It was very dark and confusing, you know, being told like you need to terminate this pregnancy, while also feeling my baby move around and kick and be very much alive inside of my womb. And as a parent, you want to protect your children and keep them safe, and so it was just such a strange existence at that time and really the only words that go far enough is that it felt ghastly and disturbing and grotesque and I remember just, you know, after getting home with that knowledge of that, my baby couldn't live, but my baby was moving around and kicking. I almost threw up.

I was so, I was so devastated and so disturbed by that information that I was like I'm going to throw up. I'm going to throw up and just feeling nauseated with that because it just felt so incompatible. I'm like, but wait, like my child's moving and, and you know, later on, you know, a couple of days later, when we met with the doctor and, and you know, she recommended termination, you know that in and of itself was also just this ghastly experience of like, but my baby is alive. You know, I can, I can feel I didn't know was a boy at the time, but I can feel him moving around and so I mean those are really the only words that feel like they get close is just is just disturbing. It was, it was so dark and so heavy and and not what any mother wants to hear.

Yeah, as a mother myself, I'm thinking about your situation and putting myself there. And yeah, I also think it would be grotesque to think about having to terminate the life of my child. That I can feel moving around in my womb. My heart goes out to you, catherine. This is hard stuff, the hardest. So what happened next?

So I'll backtrack a little bit to just the night that we got home and I was just completely bereaved and just shocked and I was thinking in my mind like I can't, I can't do this, I cannot, I can't bear this. This is so painful, this is so disturbing, I can't do it and God, you can't ask this stuff of me. And then being kind of hit with this realization, like I just remember thinking in my mind like I'm a Christian, I'm a Christian, I, I have to live by my convictions and belief that this is a child. And not only is this a child, this is a child made in the image of God and therefore I need to dignify this life. And that that recognition just kind of washing over me that like I have to continue the pregnancy, like I actually have to, I have to live by what I, by what I believe, and if I really believe that this is a human being and made in the image of God, then I, then I'm going to continue this pregnancy.

Well, Katherine, I said in the intro that you had authored some of the most beautiful blog posts, and I was referring to those you wrote during your pregnancy and especially during this time of crisis when, when you had to, as you say, live by your convictions. From what I read, I know that you cried out to God in prayer and that you knew this would not be easy, but it was a decision you felt you had to make. You're only at the halfway point in your pregnancy and you knew that, as a baby continued to grow and your belly continued to be an outward indicator to others that you were pregnant, it would bring so many challenging exchanges with people. Tell us about your emotional state as you grappled with all of this.

I had basically five months left of my pregnancy. I couldn't even fathom what that was going to be like because the weight that I felt I was carrying already just recognizing that my child couldn't survive, along with having to carry that knowledge for five more months while also progressing in my pregnancy and looking like a normal pregnant woman with a cute baby bump and all of those things, and knowing that to the outside world I would look like any other pregnant woman but my child could not survive I applied my womb. All I knew basically had that. Once we recognized that we were going to continue the pregnancy, I just got to this point where I was like the can't fathom this. I can't picture this. I don't know how it's going to work, I just have to let it happen.

It was kind of this surrender in a way of this is what I'm doing and this is my choice, and I just I can't even try to muster up strength or courage because I didn't have any at all. It was just like, okay, I'm just going to let this happen and let it unfold, because I don't know. I mean, it's not very eloquent. It was just like I don't know how this is going to happen. I was in basically like the depths, the depths of despair at that time and it was just kind of like existing. At that time. I didn't feel. I didn't feel particularly faithful or faith-filled, I just like this is what I'm doing.

Wow, that is so much to take in, and I think that people that were either observing you or who knew about your situation, or maybe even people that are listening. Now it's easy to judge or form opinions or think what they might do. Like you said, it hit you one day I'm a Christian and what do I really believe, and how many of us have ever been put in a position like that? It's easy to say it, but you were living it, so you made this decision, but along the way, a few other things happened. You switched doctors a few times and you said you made contact with a pretty influential person who empathized with you and your situation. Talk about that.

We actually switched doctors three times and we ended up at the University of Washington and they were the first doctors that we worked with that were willing to accept our choice to continue the pregnancy, and so we actually sat down with I think it was four or five doctors before the birth and I had kind of written out a flow chart of possible events that could happen.

If this, then this, if he's born alive, then we need to assess for this particular thing and if we're able to stabilize him, then let's go ahead and do this, because my hope was that in somehow the best case of the worst case scenario we were in was that, even though he didn't have kidneys, if he had the ureters leading from where the kidney should have been to his bladder and if he had the arteries that needed to be present, that perhaps if we could stabilize him, he could be put on dialysis until he was large enough to be considered for a transplant.

There's, like one other baby, I think there's three babies in the entire world that have ever survived having no kidneys, and one of them lives in Washington state and is the daughter of a congresswoman who actually I got in touch with and she was actually the person that got us into the University of Washington and got us connected with some of the doctors that she knew there, and so we had kind of this flow chart of events and they accepted that and actually said obviously you've thought this through really, really deeply and we will do what we can. I think we will try to provide your child with care, if there's something that can be.

Well, you really did your research and you learned a lot about your baby's condition and the options that were before you. You also had the support of this medical team, which is great, but there were still some pretty big challenges ahead as you prepared for delivery. Tell us about that time.

My son was breech at the time and usually they would never let a woman deliver breech. But given the situation they were willing for me to decide either a C-section or a vaginal birth. We felt that a C-section had a higher likelihood of the baby being born alive. But then the issue with that is if a woman is given a C-section she has to convalesce for a couple hours and our baby obviously would have such intensely high needs that he would be whisked away immediately and I would not be able to go with him. And so we were kind of faced with this choice of like well, if I have a vaginal delivery he might not survive and if I have a C-section he might die without me and I wanted to be there holding him. So this whole situation that pregnancy was just like this is terrible, this is horrible and horrific, these decisions. Ultimately we decided to do a vaginal birth and we prayed. We were at the hospital, I was in labor, we still didn't know what we were going to do. We just decided to pray and bring it to God and we felt a lot of peace about a vaginal birth and we were like you know, if our son is not strong enough to survive being born naturally, then I don't think there are any procedures that they could offer him that would save him at that time. And again, we didn't know it was a son, but I'm using that language because I know now that he was our son. And so, yeah, when I gave birth, there was a surgical, I was in an operating room, even though I wasn't having a C-section, just in case anything needed to be done, and there were about 20 people standing at the foot of my bed as I'm in labor. They're all in their hospital garb and waiting.

And then, before he was fully born, I noticed that everyone disappeared, except for the doctor and a couple nurses, and I knew that he had died and that they, even though he wasn't fully out, that they knew that he was dead. And so, you know, the doctor said would you like to meet your baby? And I was like yes, of course. So they put him on my chest and he yeah, he had already passed away. And I mean I just remember sobbing and saying I'm sorry.

I'm sorry because it just felt like in that moment, like that it was. You know, as a mom, you just you want to protect your children and you know you meet your baby and they're already gone and I had hope so badly that I could hold him as he passed away and do that last act of you know, parenting your child and deciding to sacrificially love them, even through death. And so I felt so sad that I didn't get to hold him as he died. And then we also just felt I don't know I mean other than to say just like peace at the same time of getting to hold him and to know that, in a sense, like it was over, like his, you know, his journey was over and hours and not in that long five months was over for us to. Obviously the pain wasn't over, but that long, long haul and track of dealing with that weight was coming to an end.

I am just so sorry thinking about that and, as mom too, I understand and I think you know. When you and I talked before, you had trauma every step of the way and there were so many choices and you stayed true to your values and what you believed.

And again, it was a test of faith. And one of the things that struck me when we talked before is you did spend I think you said 12 hours or something with Simon at the hospital and then, ultimately, you had to leave, and I understand those feelings because I shared with you before. I had to leave my son at the hospital too, and there's nothing worse, you know there's nothing worse on that.

So how did you let's just talk now about your grief a little bit losing a son and having to walk away how did you manage your grief and process the sorrow afterwards?

It's interesting because I feel like my entire pregnancy with Simon we ended up, you know, as he's a son and we named him Simon it was a lot of anticipatory grieving. So I was really worried that after I had my baby and if he passed away, that I would fall even further into this like darkness that I felt was kind of constantly surrounding me during my entire pregnancy. But actually what I realized is that all of my grieving happened almost all, I should say almost all of my grieving happened during my pregnancy with Simon and in a way, I feel like God was so gracious and merciful to me. I had a lot of people say things like you know, you need to pray for healing and you know things like that. And that was difficult because I truly felt that God was preparing me and my husband to say goodbye to our child. So of course we prayed that there would be something that we could do. We prayed that the prognosis wasn't as bad as it seemed and we hoped for that. But we did ultimately feel a strong conviction that the Lord was preparing us for our son's death, and so that was kind of what I was doing. You know, we met him, we were with him for 12 hours. We bathed him, we held him.

There were a lot of things wrong that we saw and became aware of and it was like there wasn't anything that we could have done. You know, even if we had done a C-section, you know, rec seeing, seeing the needs that he had, the physical medical needs, there wasn't anything that could have been done. And so I feel like we had, we had a lot of closure and also just like God's presence during our time with him was so, just like, just so heavy and but in the Badeway, like he was so present that I used to remember holding my son and looking at his face and just feeling these, like, just these waves of love, like, almost like radiating from my son, but also just like the room, like it just felt like the Lord was with us, and I don't want to say felt like, because the Lord was with us and he made us able to bond with our son in a way that we weren't expecting. And so we just had so much closure and I realized, you know, after everything happened and we were home again, I still was grieving and I was still really struggling and the first few days after that were a torment. But then I did feel like I had, I had walked through that, through the valley, and that I was coming out of it, that I was like, okay, I've done this. And I feel like, ultimately, just by carrying our son and protecting and dignifying his life gave me such peace that I was able to know that I did what I could. I did what I could, I did everything that could possibly be done, and I didn't have to look back with any questions or wanderings or, you know, could I have done more? Was there something? It's like I knew, I knew that we had done all that we could and so we were able to kind of walk away from that season, not without suffering or grief and pain, but also without any guilt or fear or worry.

So when it came time to leave the hospital, that, along with learning our son would die, and then, when you know, after the 20 week scan and then having to leave my child at the hospital, those were the two most grotesque moments of the entire pregnancy and, of course, having to leave, simon being the worst of the two. It just is against every instinct you have as a mother to hand your baby off to a nurse and leave and just the just how bereft and empty we felt walking out, I just we kept trying to extend, we're like maybe we'll stay a few more hours, maybe we'll stay another night, because the thought of what we had to do, which is to hand him over to someone, and that we wouldn't see him again and hold him and just like feel his weight and his reality and the fact that he was here, you know, was so agonizing. And I remember we just ended up having to do it and the nurse standing there and she was horrified and she just kept saying I'm so, I'm sorry, I'm so sorry. And we handed Simon to her and had to leave. And I just remember, walking out of the hospital and with our bags and they gave me this little box, you know, like a memory box, and it had like a little. We had cut some of his hair and his you know wristband from the hospital and I was just, you know, we think, as we left and people were kind of watching us as we walked by and it just was such a strange experience, like in those moments you just like recognize like the vast differences, like life differences, of what people are going through and that you never know like that I was.

You know, just in this I was just completely bereft. But then there were, you know, women in the hall. You know I was walking past the doors, you know that had their new baby and it just just seeing, just like the juxtaposition of what humans experience, was just so strange. And leaving that hospital without our son and knowing that you know we wouldn't see him again, there's just nothing to prepare for that moment and you can't really prepare for it other than to just it just happens and somehow you don't die because it feels like you should, you know.

Yeah, and sadly I do know, I was also given a little packet of my son's hair and, like you said, it just goes against every maternal instinct. We have to walk away with a little keepsake, but without the child that's the worst. Thank you for walking us through all those emotions, catherine. So hard, but thank you. So, Katherine, throughout our discussion you shared some really important insights that you learned in the depth of your anguish. You told us that when you were at the deepest point of pain and sorrow, you remembered that you're a Christian and that you needed to live by the convictions that you've always held fast to. You explained your realization that your baby is a child created in the image of God and that you therefore needed to dignify his life.

You said you went to God in prayer at every step during this trial and that, even though at the time you didn't feel very faithful or faith-filled, you know that God heard your cries and that he was walking beside you in the valley. You recalled your feelings about wanting to hold your child as he passed away and how you were saddened that that did not occur, but you talked about a sense of peace and of God's presence at that dark hour. That confirmed to you that you had been obedient and had done all you could do. You shared the difficult moments of grief that came along with having to leave your son at the hospital, as you saw other parents rejoicing with their new babies. But you recognized at that moment the vast differences of what other people go through in this life and you discovered a new empathy and appreciation for the difficulties we all face. Katherine, what other lessons have you learned Having been through all of this? Can you share with someone listening who needs help right now?

I would obviously, given my convictions, argue that's better to choose present and temporary suffering by continuing the pregnancy and then having like a lifelong certainty and peace, than it is to choose what the doctors call kind of a quick fix. But I look back and God was faithful and he led me through a wilderness of sorts and he was with me. Now I look back and I have complete freedom. I would say to someone in my position to trust that somehow God will use this in a way that you're not expecting and that he will carry you, because you won't be capable on any in your own strength and you can't see the lessons right now and I don't even want to ask you to try to see them because it's hard. But I would say that the Lord will use your suffering for your good and for his glory and that when we trust God with our entire lives, he is faithful to redeem those things in ways that we're not expecting.

There's a crow by Charles Spurgeon that says when we cannot trace his hand. We must trust his heart and meaning what he means by that is we don't understand what God is doing. We don't understand why God allows the things that he allows. We can't understand it and I don't even think we should try, because those are hidden and those are mysteries. But I can trust his heart and that it is good and that he loves me, and so I don't need to try to trace his hand, and neither do you. But you can trust his heart for you and trust that in time you will be transformed and your child, living or dead, will be a blessing to you and it will be used for your good and for God's glory.

I love it. Those are great lessons and you know, when we put ourselves out there, we don't always get an opportunity to know if our experiences are really helping people or not. We hope and believe they are, so that's what it's all about. So, in conclusion, you did end up with three healthy children and for that I know you are eternally grateful.

Yes. So that is in and of itself incredible, and so I am very even just moved by the fact that we were able to have healthy pregnancies after such a season, and I know that not all women will have that outcome, and so I am careful to not equate my faithfulness and my birth with Simon. I am pregnant with Simon with the fact that I have three children now, because I would just want to say to you another lesson is God gives us particular mercies. He doesn't give us the same mercies as other people and the same blessings, and so we have to try to look for what are the mercies, the particular mercies that the Lord has given to me, and they will not look like somebody else.

Yes, that is so true, and we can't compare our circumstances to others, and that is so important to address. Well, Katherine, at this point I just want to say thank you so much for agreeing to come on the show and share your story. It was a pleasure meeting you and getting to know you.

Thank you so much for having me.

So for those of you listening, I know this story is a hard one. A baby's life is so precious, and when a mother feels the moving and kicking of her unborn child at her womb, there's no feeling like it in the world. For me it was like I was already in love with Sean and I hadn't even seen his face. He was mine and I was his right from the very start, and my love for him just grew stronger as my belly grew larger. That's what it's like for a mother, and actually that's what it's like for a father. God, the Father. He knew us before we were formed in our mother's womb and he loves you so much.

Katherine was actually quoting scripture when she said it's better to choose this present and temporary suffering. In 2 Corinthians, chapter 4, verses 17 and 18, it says "For this light and momentary suffering is achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. If you know, you know I don't know what you're going through right now, my friend, but I do know that all you have to do is call out to God and he'll be right there beside you. He may not take away your pain or circumstances, but he can walk with you through the valley and see you through to the other side and day by day you'll get stronger and one day you'll be able to help someone else with the lessons you learned and your loss. Thanks for listening.