The Pain God Entrusted Me With

Welcome And Why Child Loss Hurts

Michelle 0:09

Well, hey everybody, and welcome back to Qualified, the place where incredible people share their stories of overcoming great adversity and loss to inspire you and give you hope. I'm Michelle Heaton. The loss of a child is one like no other. Unless you've experienced it, you can't even begin to imagine it. And if you've listened to my show before, you've heard me share about the loss of my son Sean. Losing my only child was sudden and unexpected. And it left me completely shattered and feeling isolated from others. I felt like no one could understand my pain, so I began to surround myself with other bereaved parents, and I soon learned their stories. These men and women shared accounts of their tragic losses with me, all of them hard to hear and completely heartbreaking to say the least. But the space we shared in these conversations felt sacred, even holy, as they talked about how God comforted them and sustained them in their pain. These incredible people were girded up with the strength to endure their pain, move forward with their lives, and many of them even went on to do great things that would help other people, leaving a legacy in the names of their beloved children. Well, my guest today certainly understands the pain of child loss. She lost not one but two of her young sons on September 29th, 2020, when a speeding driver struck and killed them both in a crosswalk near their home, as she watched helplessly. And in a matter of moments, every parent's worst nightmare became her reality. But she refused to allow the worst moment of her life to become the end of her story. Grounded in her Christian faith, she and her family transformed their grief into service, establishing the Mark and Jacob Iskander Foundation to carry forward the boy's legacy of faith, kindness, and compassion. Its work has supported underserved children, scholarships, orphan care, and foster youth. She later expanded that mission by helping establish the Good Shepherd, Mark and Jacob, a foster care organization serving children and families in Southern California. Her name is Nancy Iskander, and it's an honor and privilege to have her as my guest on the show today. Welcome to Qualified Nancy.

Nancy 2:43

Thank you, Michelle. Thank you for having me.

Michelle 2:47

Well, thank you for reaching out and agreeing to come on the show. Honestly, I've been looking forward to this conversation since our first email. So thank you again. Well, to start, first I just want to say that my heart goes out to you as a mom who's had to endure so much surrounding the loss of two children. So my sincere condolences, Nancy.

Nancy 3:09

Thank you, Michelle.

Michelle 3:12

So before we get into our discussion about the emotions and the depth of grief you experienced around losing Mark and Jacob, can you first just take some time and tell us about these two amazing boys

Meeting Mark And Jacob

Michelle 3:25

and also why today is a significant date for you?

Nancy 3:30

Yes, absolutely. So before 2020, I was a mother to these beautiful boys, and they were truly special boys. And I didn't know how special they were until they were taken away. Not because they were taken away, but because when you think about the kind of boys they were, you realize really these were the boys every every mom would wish she had. So Mark was my oldest. He was the first grandson to my mom. He was a big heart. He was extremely talented and like socially talented. So he would be able to make friends wherever we are, be able to speak, um, publicly speak or tell jokes. I remember during the COVID time, he entered into he was the funniest in the neighborhood competition and he won. He was the funniest in Westlake Village. He loved telling jokes, and uh he got most of his jokes from the sermons we heard every morning on our way to school. Uh, we uh we like to hear uh Joel Osteen, and he always opens with a joke. So that Jacob was my godly biblical boy who loved the word of God, and Mark loved the jokes piece. So we enjoyed Joel Osteen together. Mark was also extremely smart, extremely smart ahead of his years, definitely. And his plans for his future was to become a neurosurgeon in the mornings and a stand-up comedian at night. We all had big dreams for him, and he was a social butterfly, so everyone loved him, but especially Jacob. Jacob loved him the most. He was extremely close to him. They were slightly more than two years apart, just a little bit more than two years apart. So they were really close. And Jacob looked up to him. He wanted to be like him, but Jacob was so different. He was the tough guy, the athletic guy. He had different strengths. And I'm sure every one of your listeners can think of their children, whether they're, you know, if they lost a child or their surviving children, and quickly realized how every child comes with their strength, their weaknesses, and how they're all very special. And Mark and Jacob were extremely special and at the same time different. So they complemented each other in a beautiful way. You had the the heart, the social guy, and then the athletic guy, the protector, and then the artistic. So that's that was a beautiful gift that Jesus gave me, Mark, Jacob. And they lived with me 11 years for Mark and only eight for Jacob. And on September 29th, 2020, that was my last day with them.

Michelle 6:16

Well, September 29th is a landmark day. That's a hard, hard day. But I know that today is also a special day for you. Can you tell us why?

Nancy 6:27

Yes, today is extremely special as well. Because today's Mark's birthday. It's September 18th. He turned 11, September 18th, 2020. That was his last birthday. I baked him a cake, a skateboard-shaped cake, and on that day. And I remember how we celebrated, and I got him a surfboard because he really liked the ocean. And it was the last birthday we celebrated with him. Today he turns 17. He should be a senior in high school. But I am interesting him in the hands of Jesus.

Michelle 7:03

Yes. Brian, thank you for um basically your bravery in having this conversation on such a hard day because while those birthdays are difficult, no matter how many paths, they're always difficult. And also thank you for sharing just the beauty of these boys and how God created them to be so special. We moms always feel that way. But from what I've heard from you and what I've seen, they loved the Lord, they loved family, and those are beautiful qualities to have in young men. So again, thank you for sharing that. And as hard as it is to set the stage for this discussion, can you explain to us what happened on September 29th

The Crosswalk Crash Recounted

Michelle 7:45

that changed your life forever?

Nancy 7:48

So that was COVID time, right? It was during the pandemic. People were at home for the most part. Oaks Christian, where Mark went, his school was open, I believe three days a week or a little over three days a week. So he went to school that day and I picked him up after school, after his water polo practice. And then we went home, but the other boys were at home. I also had, in addition to Mark and Jacob, I also have Zachary with their little brother, and I have a little daughter who was at the time one. And so what I did that day, like pretty much every day during the pandemic, is take everyone out for a walk. But you know, during the pandemic, when you have four children in the house, it, you know, it gets a lot and they get bored. And I was working from home, my husband was working from home. So it was kind of, you know, we needed a refresher and a breather at the end of the day. So when I came back, when I brought back Mark from school, and we spent some time at home, and then we decided to go for our walk, which we did pretty much every day. This time we wanted to go towards the lake, the West Lake Lake, to beautiful lake. And my husband was running jogging with my one-year-old daughter in the stroller, and I was behind him with the three boys. And at some point, we decided to cross the street to see the lake. The lake looked beautiful, and I still remember to this day the view I had as I looked to the other side, and I thought, oh, we'll take some good pictures there because the boys love to take pictures together. So I said, let's cross the street, and they said, Yeah, and we stepped into the crosswalk. And after crossing the first half of the road, and maybe one more lane, I started hearing the noise, the sound, the roaring sound of two engines coming towards us. There were two cars racing. What I saw was two cars racing. I was able to save Zachary, my five-year-old, because I had kept him right next to me, because he's the youngest. I was able to save him and save myself from that first car that passed. But then I looked back, and Mark and Jacob were gone. And the car that hit them also was gone. Um, and I found myself standing on the road that day, just with in a complete silence. All of a sudden, after that roaring engine sound, there was just complete silence, and I was screaming because I didn't hear them scream or yell or call mom or anything. It was just completely quiet. Zachary was on this on the curb. And I walked towards Mark and I saw his face and I immediately realized he was gone. I think it's a mom, it's probably it's a mom's thing, stick up that you know, you just you just have to see it. I didn't lean down to hear his heartbeat or anything. I I knew his injuries were also catastrophic. And then I went back for Jacob. Mark Mark had been thrown further down the road. And then I saw Jacob, and Jacob looked like as if he was asleep. He looked peaceful and asleep, as if he was asleep to me. And I kept thinking, he's gonna get up now and we'll go home. And he was he he did not get up. Um I leaned on his I leaned, put my ear on his chest and listened to his heart, and I could hear his heart beat, but so that strengthened my faith a little bit, and I kept thinking, There is no way Jesus will take him both. They loved him so much, I love him so much, there is no way Jesus will allow this to happen to me. So Jacob will get up and we'll go home. And then paramedics started arriving, bystanders started to come, you know, people started to come to the scene, and uh police, of course, ambulance, the ambulance took Jacob to um Los Robles Hospital, where I sat beside him and said my goodbyes until he left.

Michelle 12:17

Yeah. I know that I know that's hard to talk about. And again, thank you for your bravery and sharing it. You know, as you were walking through the story and saying, you know, mom just knows I experienced that too. And like I said in the intro, there's nothing like losing a child. So for those people who are listening who might be experiencing that right now, I think it's helpful sometimes to know that others can understand. Because as I mentioned before, there's that isolation,

Denial And The First Weeks

Michelle 12:50

which I think you also felt. Can you explain how you felt emotionally following this, like within the first couple of days and weeks? What was what was it like for you?

Nancy 13:05

It was it was extremely hard, as you might imagine. So I remember the deep sense of denial. I remember that because the next morning I called uh Mark's best friend's mom, and I said, please call the school and let them know Mark won't be there today. He he cared deeply about his academics. So the only thing I could think of that morning was that he's gonna miss what they're gonna teach today. So let me let them know. And it so the denial was very deep for a few days, right? And even months after, because I remember waking up months after and wanting to walk to their rooms or walking even to their rooms to wake them up from school just to see those beds empty. So I remember that sense of denial lingering a long time. And then another feeling I got just for me as a pragmatic person, I'm extremely practical and pragmatic. This is just my my personality. So the question that kept coming to me is now what? Like, how am I gonna live another day? And how will that day look like? This this question tortured me a lot because I'm the kind of person who's very organized and wants one, two, three, here's my mission, here's what I need to do. But that kind of like threw me off tracks completely. And I felt like, okay, now what? What does God want from me now? And I remember calling one of the priests at my church and asking him, I said, What does God want me to do now? He must have something he wants me to do. And the the priest's response was, There's that's not a question. You cannot ask, what does God want me to do? God wants you to do what you want to do, and you decide what you want to do, and you know, where do you want to go from here? This is the pain he entrusted you with. What is it that you're gonna do with it? And at that moment I felt, okay, it is now up to me, which makes it a little harder, but it is up to me. And I could now see how I'm gonna cope, how I'm gonna live, what kind of mother I will be. You know, the next chapter is, you know, I can write it. I can write another chapter, is how I felt. But I definitely remember the deep sadness and the denial. I do not remember asking why God, why? I don't know why. People have come to me and said, Nancy, you must be asking why God. But I really did not ask this question. I don't know why. I I had felt that you know it is what it is, and he must have had a reason. There must be a reason behind it. And uh, yeah, never asked why.

Michelle 15:58

Yeah. No, I think it's interesting. You know, you asked the priest at your church, and I think that's it's normal and natural to kind of reach out. What do I do? What do I do? I felt the same way. But I think it's so interesting that he said it's the pain that God entrusted you with, because that probably makes a lot more sense to you today than it did back then, because I know that's how it felt for me. Um, yeah, so those emotions, denial and how do I live another day, I think very normal and just uh hard to even imagine and cope with. But there you are in the middle of it. And taking that next breath, I realized that back then was hard. I had a friend the other day who reminded me that I had to remind you to breathe, Michelle. And I thought, wow. Um, but for you, during the last six years now, you've had to process all these emotions since the collision that you and your family had to witness, um, your grief, and then also having to endure a court

Coping Through Prayer And Boundaries

Michelle 17:05

case that received national attention. So, could I ask, what coping mechanisms did you rely on? Because you still had to balance your role of wife and mother, and you were working as a pharmacist. How did you cope?

Nancy 17:22

So after the boys died, I have come to realize that people around me, not everyone around me, is going to be able to support me. I realized that quickly that not everyone will be able to say the right things, not everyone would be able to be even comfortable being around me. So a few months after I have narrowed my circle substantially, and I decided that maybe, you know, there were only a few people where I am comfortable spending time with and maybe sharing a smile or a laugh or some good time. And that was an important way for me to cope, right? Just be with the people I'm comfortable with and just keep that thin layer of comfort and peace that I have. Just try to maintain it as much as possible with those people around me who love me, whether it's my surviving kids, my husband, a couple of my friends, and just keep it at that, keep it narrow, but you know, kind of maximize on these on these moments where I can have a good breather or I can have a smile without being judged or without any hurtful words, because these come as well. So that was one of my coping mechanisms. Another one, and maybe the most important one was prayer. I would just close my door and pray for hours and hours and prostrations and prayers and asking God for comfort and asking God for signs and asking God to bring around me the right people. I think prayer helps, even if it doesn't feel like it's helping at the moment, it does help. So that that was my my very also important way to cope, especially during the trial. Because during the trial, I had felt many times that it's very intimidating. There were a lot of big names uh of attorneys that were hired by the other side, and it was sometimes intimidating, it was sometimes scary. And a lot of moments I felt I have nothing but Jesus, and he's the best, and there's nothing like him. I have the best and nothing like him, and I just need to hold on to it as hard as I could, hold on to that piece of wood during the storm. So yeah, I just prayed and prayed morning, nights, and just surrounding myself with only the right people. And it's you know, to anyone listening, going through hard times of tragedy or grief or loss, it is definitely okay to not answer the phone or the call of someone who might say something that can hurt you, even if it's just a small possibility that the person on the other side of the phone will hurt you, don't do it. Don't answer, it's fine. Only allow people into your heart and into your life that are understanding, faithful, godly people in a way that will align with how your heart is, would be my advice.

Michelle 20:31

Well, that's I think it's good advice. And I I think it's amazing that you took such a healthy approach. To me, that's a very healthy approach, narrowing your circle, leaning on God. I also want to highlight the fact that you said prayer sometimes you feel like it's not working or it may feel like that. And so for people listening that may not have a foundation in faith, I think it's important to know that God does hear when we pray. Like you said, even though it doesn't feel that way, there's comfort that I think we'll get more into that discussion and you'll help us understand that better. But again, I think it's a very healthy

Refusing To Numb The Pain

Michelle 21:10

approach. And so I want to ask you, because it occurred to me that you were a working pharmacist at the time. And I think you told me that you even had a family member who was in the medical field as well who brought you prescription drugs. Did you ever consider taking them to help with the pain and the stress?

Nancy 21:27

Yes. So I have a wonderful brother-in-law. He's a brilliant doctor, neurologist, and he was in extreme shock. He actually came to Los Robles the night of September 29th to be with us as we were saying goodbye to Jacob. And he was in complete disbelief and shock. He's my husband's brother, and he's 15 years older than my brother. So he thinks of himself sometimes as the dad, kind of. So he came the next day to our home and he was ready to. Recommend all these medications to help me cope, whether it's sleeping pills, you know, different types of neurologic pain pills or whatever I needed in order to be able to live through the days. Initially, I said no because I did not want to mask the pain. Because to me, and I feel like many people who lose a child might feel the same way. It's like, I don't want to mask the pain. So that was the initial reason why I had said no. I don't want to mask the pain because masking the pain might mean that I will forget them. And I don't want ever to forget my babies. And I remember crying nights and nights with I would be crying just over the thought that one day I might forget Mark and Jacob. But and then after that, I I was brave enough to make it through a few days without any medication. And then after that, I realized, no, I should also be saying no because it is not the right way to make it out of a tragedy that God entrusted me with. It's not the right way. If God gave me something, meds or alcohol are not the right path to make it out because God has to be also the way to make it out. If he put me in something, he needs to be the one taking me out of that. So I just prayed and prayed and asked for signs and asked for wisdom and kept myself busy. And another piece that I felt extremely important also is as God is taking my hand out of this tragedy, uh, I need to help him. And in order to help him get me out of that pain, I have to help others. The only way to help Jesus, that's how I felt. I haven't even I haven't even talked about that to anyone, but in order to help, I felt like we should all help Jesus take us out of our pain. And how do I help him take me out of a pain? By helping another one of his children. So I felt by serving others, I'm I am helping his hand taking me out of the pain. So I started, we started the orphanage in Egypt. And as we talked more about that, we started some scholarships at Oaks Christian and Ascension. We started uh, you know, services, that different types of services that I felt are the way for Jesus' hand to just pull me out of the pain. I I'm not saying that the pain has ever gone away. I'm I'm I still live it every day, I still cry every day, but I'm definitely now in a different place than I was the day of September 29.

Michelle 24:48

Well, I think as I'm listening to you, so spiritually mature that you would say that because it's just unfathomable to me at that, you know, at that point of pain that she would say, I want to feel it. But then again, I remember feeling a similar way about not wanting to lose the memory. And, you know, sometimes when we cry and we just sit with the memory, it makes us feel closer to them in a way, at least it did with me. So I love that you said that you didn't want to mask it and forget about them. But that's incredibly spiritually mature. I just love that you

When Support Turns Hurtful

Michelle 25:25

want to walk the walk. And we're gonna talk more about that as we get to some other questions. But as we talked the first time, you told me that you were actually kind of surprised from some of the responses from your friends and families and co-workers. It might help people listening to hear some of that because maybe they're going through it. Can you share some of that?

Nancy 25:48

Absolutely. When Mark and Jacob died, we were close to our church community. We were attending church every Sunday, kids were attending Sunday school, hymns class. So we were very close to the church community and we were with the same families every week, and they were friends with their kids. So, on some level, I've always believed that we're all attending church together, we're all the same age group, we're all living in the same kind of community or Southern California, so we should all have this that same level of faith. That is wrong. I have come to realize this is wrong. So if you're listening and you are grieving lost, please know that just the fact that two people go to the same church every Sunday doesn't mean they have the same heart. Two people even preaching every Sunday doesn't mean they have the same heart. Two people within your family who come to your house for Thanksgiving, bringing a pie, does not mean they have the same heart. Everyone is in a different stage in their journey of faith. Everyone is different and everyone sees tragedy differently. So in my case, I was extremely surprised, disappointed, and shocked in some of the reaction I received from my own church. And I think it's because of the magnitude of the tragedy and how hard it hit everyone that some of our congregation members started to come up with reasons why God would allow that in order to try and understand. So I've heard all the reasons they were able to come up with. And unfortunately, they were, you know, they weren't shy in telling me their reasons. So they said, you know, maybe you're a bad mom, maybe you were teaching them the wrong stuff, maybe they would have grown up to be evil, maybe they're already evil. So I've heard I've heard it all. And then, but the beauty is that I have heard the right things from so many other people. Maybe some from my church, and wonderful things also from some of the church members, and wonderful things from people outside the church, from different churches, from different parts of the community, from different backgrounds, different races. And I was able to realize that faith and and just belief and in trusting the Lord is not for a certain number of people or a certain form or look. It's for anyone who has the heart for it and anyone who opens their heart for it. And now I know who I'm able to bring into my circle, and I believe that tragedy and pain was a little window for me to see the hearts of those around me and to see where everyone is. And uh not to judge them. I mean, I'm sure everyone has their own path, and I should not be judging them, but for my own coping, for my own well-being, I felt it is important for me to stick with those who are maybe on the same page as I am. And uh I can't tell you how many people who were strangers to me I consider now family or sisters, and many people that I had considered sisters before the tragedy, I now feel that they're so different than me and maybe strangers. So it is normal for people around you to behave differently or to ignore you, ignore you the pain. Just now that this is nothing but a little window into their heart.

Michelle 29:32

I think that is actually a gift that we get to realize things like that because there's so many things that before we would not have known. And I I loved when we talked before, and you shared this with me, because you're right, in any given church, you could look around, and there's no way that everyone in that building is at the same level spiritually. We've all come to know God and we grow in our faith. And so when tragedy strikes, you will probably see the most empathy from those who are further along in their either their walk with God or just their

How Siblings Carry The Loss

Michelle 30:05

life experience or a combination of the two. I want to talk about your other children just for a minute and how losing Mark and Jacob impacted their lives.

Nancy 30:19

Yes. So I had always wanted a daughter, and I ended up with three boys and a daughter. My third boy, Zachary, was always with Mark and Jacob. He was very attached to them. He is 11 years old now, and he was five when he saw them die on the road that day. He is just his he sees the world differently than his peers right now, for sure. He has discussions with me that life is unfair. He unfortunately have seen the very dark side of life very early on. And I don't know what it will do to his personality later on, but he has now that level of maturity that you know anything bad can happen at any time. I don't know if I should call it maturity or like fear. He values things differently, he looks, he sees his sister differently, and he also sees the promise of the Bible differently. Stays extremely close to the Bible as well. He is counting on the promise that he will see his brothers in heaven. So he's living his life to go to heaven, so he's very careful about everything he does because he wants to go to heaven, and I think that's beautiful. But you'll be surprised, Michelle, how much he remembers. He he was only with them five years, but one of these years was the COVID year, so he was with them pretty much all the time. But he remembers very little details, even of what they've done together, the games they played, the ice cream they had together. Just the other day, he was setting up his password for his school email for sixth grade, and I asked him what password did he choose, and it had Mark in it. He's just a little 11-year-old who should be a regular 11-year-old, but he's an 11-year-old looking at heaven and thinking, when will I be there to be with them? For violence, um it breaks my heart for my daughter because I had lived a little bit of the dream to see her with a brother nine years older than her and one seven years older than her, that they would be her protector to guide her in life. She had lost so much with their loss, but I don't know if she realizes it quite yet. Now, the loss of Mark and Jacob has also cost my children half of their mother. That's what I don't think there's any way out of. I feel like part of me had died with Mark and Jacob, and there's just no way going back. So I'm, you know, I'm kind of I'm a broken mother to them. And a mother who went through the tragedy. And I think no one can choose their parents. Like this is the mom they got. But I hope one day that when they grow up, they would appreciate that I was able to raise them, even though I carried that pain.

Michelle 33:17

Yeah. Well, as you were talking, I could I could definitely relate to what she said about Zachary's sense of something bad can happen at any time. Because when you see your child die or you see your child, you know, already gone, then that becomes a reality to you. Okay, he was here one moment, he's gone the next. Anything can happen. And I know for me, that sense of anything can happen initially caused me so much anxiety. So in the early stages with me and maybe with your children too, a lot of anxiety, constantly worrying and the fear of that. But the beauty of what she said, the flip side is what I call the eternal perspective, your focus on heaven now, because there's a new desire to be there, to be with your children again. And I think there's a huge blessing in that because that's where God wants us to live, is in that state of longing for our real home. And so I'm hopeful that your children will be able to balance that. That's the hard thing about grief is that tension between the sorrow and joy that we live with. But I think that his talking about heaven and that that's a blessing. A huge blessing. So and you talked about being half of a mother. You know, I was gonna ask you about how it impacted your parenting, being a broken mom. Do you think the children sense the sadness that you carry?

Nancy 34:50

Yes, absolutely. Yeah, I do cry pretty often, I would say. And I have preferred places at home where I go sit down and cry. So they know I like to sit on the ground in the pantry. So Violet will now will tell you, mom's just missing Mark and Jacob right now. But and then she'll be okay. So they know when I cry, they know what I miss them, and they understand the magnitude of the loss. But what I love about it is that they also see me being able to take them to school, make their lunch, do their homework with them. So I hope that they would recognize that in life, yes, anything can happen and any loved one can disappear at any second, but life continues and you should be able to continue and you should be strong. And Jesus does carry.

Michelle 35:37

Yeah. Yeah, and I think you're also modeling to them that it's okay to feel the feelings that come with loss because it's the love, it's the depth of the love that we shared with them that's coming through. So I think you're modeling to them it's okay to feel feelings and not hold them in. So, my opinion is that it's a good thing in a

Choosing To Share Publicly

Michelle 36:00

sense. But now it's six years, right? We're six years after losing Mark and Jacob. And you told me that you're now ready to publicly share this experience because you want to help other people who've experienced the unique pain of child loss. And I was thinking, you know, you could have just gone on, tried to move ahead with your life, focused on healing and being there for your family. And I know you want to do those things too, but you chose to share the story. Why is that so important to you?

Nancy 36:31

Oh, Michelle, it's extremely important because of so many reasons. One of them is at the time, at the very early days, like we spoke earlier, I felt the need for someone to tell me what now, for someone to tell me, yes, you'll be okay. I've been through it. I haven't had anyone come and tell me that or anyone with a similar experience. But I hope I am that person for someone else going through a tragic loss or grief, that for them to know that life will continue and you will be okay. It's extremely important for me to support another mom in pain. Yes, you will still cry. Yes, you will be broken, but also, yes, you might have a mission, you might have a reason why God entrusted you with that pain. And I feel like those words entrust me with a pain. I feel like it's one of the main reasons that I want to talk as well, because I feel like my pain, my tragedy was not something that happened in my house or in private. It was broadcast it to the world. And the fact that God had allowed it to be so big and broadcast it to everyone, this that means maybe He wants me to share it with others. He's giving me this mission to share my experience with others. And to everyone listening who's grieving a loss, even if your loss is, you know, within a school or within a church or within a community, if everyone knows about it, don't shy away from saying, Well, uh, I am carried by the Lord, I am okay, you can follow my steps, you'll be okay as well. And pain hurts, yeah, it hurts. But we can support each other and inspire each other and carry each other through this and um make it in a place where uh we have an even bigger mission than the initial mission we thought we had, which is have a child raise them. Because look, so many people can have a child and raise them the adults. Everyone does that, and then they die, and then another person comes and lives in that home, and it goes on and on, and maybe some will not even be remembered at all. So the idea of having the pain and turning it into something that's a mission, I feel it's truly a blessing and a special case, and not everyone gets it, only those that God trusts.

Michelle 39:08

I agree with you 100%. And I feel like I love that you're willing to come on a podcast because it's going to go out and touch a lot of people. And I've heard many people say about my own son that it seems like he's helped more people in his death than in his short life because of us using the story to put it out there. And I think it's wonderful that you recognize the fact that yes, so many people heard your story. It was all over the newspapers and on YouTube. And you're brave enough to take a stand. But I think there's people that might be thinking, well, I don't have a platform. I can't come on a podcast, but they do because their platform is all the people that are around them and whatever the community that they're in, whether it be church, school, whatever.

Building A Legacy Through Service

Michelle 39:55

So, yes, well said. And I hope that encourages people to share their stories and not keep them in. And speaking of which, you started the foundation, you started a foster agency, you created scholarships and offered financial support to needy families, all in Mark and Jacob's name. How did how does creating a legacy of love, generosity, and faith honor the lives of your boys?

Nancy 40:23

So, as a Christian mom, and I believe even as any mom, as a mom, you want your kids to grow up and make a positive change in the world. I haven't met, I've never met a mom who wants her son to grow up and make a negative impact on the world. You want always you want your kids to be a light in the world. And this is how I was raising them. I was raising them close to the church, learning the word of God and studying hard to become good people. They did not have a chance to become good people and make a positive impact. So that then became my mission. My job as their mom is to make that positive impact for them. And I'm gonna continue to do that. And this is my promise today to Mark on his birthday and to Jacob. I will continue to do that as long as I'm alive and breathing. There will always be something good in their name until I die and go and see them. And today, on Mark's birthday, our foundation gives gift cards as spa gift as spa gift cards to foster mom, to one or two lucky foster parents who have gone above and beyond in helping foster youth, and we will be announcing the names later today in honor of Mark's birthday. So they get a $500 spa gift card.

Michelle 41:40

Oh, that's great. Well, good job, mama. I I think um I'm proud of you. Can I say I'm proud of you? And I'm sure your husband, uh Kareem, is

Faith When God Allows Tragedy

Michelle 41:50

proud of you and the people who know you. It's amazing what you're doing. So thank you so much. We talked about people listening that might not have a foundation of faith. And I've heard people say, I don't know how people do it when they don't have God, because it was hard enough doing it, having God, right? So, what would you say to someone who told you that they could never believe in or worship a God who would allow something so horrible to happen to these beautiful boys?

Nancy 42:24

See that part of the faith is to believe in the unknown, right? We believe in God and we don't see him, right? So if it if you had believed in God at any point in your life, right, you believed in something that you couldn't see. We also do not see the future. We cannot see what will happen 50 years from now, or the ripple effect that could happen out of this tragedy, or any tragedy, or any loss, like Sean's loss, or Mark and Jacob, or any other loss. So we have to be able to believe that there is a ripple effect, and there is just no way for me to figure out what that ripple effect will be 50 years from now or 100 years from now. I have to just trust that there is a plan, just like I trust that the sun will come up in the morning because his plans work, because the solar system works. I trust that I don't even give it a second thought. Then I have to trust that his plans and down to the smallest detail are not random. And when he chose to take Mark and Jacob on that day, he knew what he was doing. And I'm sure he always, always knows what he's doing.

Michelle 43:36

Yeah. Yeah. It's what you said about faith. Yeah. The the Bible says that it's the evidence of things unseen, and and it is all about trust. Thank you for laying it out the way you did, because I think you make it very easy

Putting The World Underfoot

Michelle 43:50

to understand, and your testimony is evidence that it's real, it's real in your life. So when we talked before, you said something interesting. You said, Michelle, the world. Is under my feet now. And I thought that was a really good way to capture what you're going through. So tell us what you mean by that and how your reaction to other losses in your life has changed since losing Mark and Jacob.

Nancy 44:15

Yeah, so I feel like I've always felt like Jesus doesn't want us to be holding on to the material things in the world. I know that God does not like us to love money. He doesn't like us to hold on to lively things that will that that we will end up leaving here and going and dying one day. But that becomes really hard if you're raising children, you're raising a family, you need money to support them. And it becomes really hard, especially when you have a child who's gifted. They were both gifted, Mark and Jacob. And I have all these dreams for them. I have one who might become a doctor, the other one wasn't to be in construction. And I was holding on to so many earthly things. And with the tragedy, with the loss, that all disappeared and just in the blink of an eye. I no longer had that neurosurgeon. I no longer had that construction worker or construction guy. I no longer had even the potential for it. It's all gone. And I felt like that, then it doesn't matter anymore to me. It really stopped mattering. And now when I think of the potential of one of my other children become a doctor, I don't really care for it so much as long as they're gonna go to heaven and meet work and Jacob and be with them. So I feel like the magnitude of the tragedy allowed me to just put that whole world under my feet and the material world under my feet. I don't care. My husband and I have gone through two layoffs, one for each one of us since the tragedy. And it's just, it just doesn't matter, right? God will provide, something else will come up, work doesn't matter, accomplishments don't matter. Because as long as we have the promise of heaven, we are going to be okay. And that's what tragedy does. It just puts the whole world under your feet. And to me, it's a triumph. It's a huge triumph. Because for people who are depressed when the stock market crashes or they're impacted by things like that, it will lead you to a miserable life. But if you don't care about anything materialistic and you just focus your goal on heaven and the life with Jesus and doing his work to come out of the tragedy, then it becomes so easy and it's a triumphant life. And I to me, that is a true freedom.

Michelle 46:44

Yeah. Well, and that goes back to what we talked about with that eternal perspective. You know, I once once heard a pastor say that, you know, it's more important to get your kids into heaven than into Harvard. And at that time, Sean was still with me. And I really had to sit and think on that because, like you said, we still need money, we still need to get them, you know, save money for their school. But you you take on a whole new understanding when your children are taken away in the blink of an eye, like you say, because nothing matters the way it used to matter. And I understand that. And I know

Lessons And Signs Of Sovereignty

Michelle 47:20

our listeners, they probably understand that as well. So this is the point in our discussion where I ask you to share the big lessons that you learned as a result of losing Mark and Jacob that you can share with someone listening who needs hope right now.

Nancy 47:39

I have written down the list of all the things that I've learned from this tragedy, but there's so many. There are 11. My list is 11, but I'm going to share a couple with you. And one of them is I have realized how strong I am as a person to have been able to go through that. Because had you asked me before, I would have said there is no way I would have survived it. But here I am today, and I'm able to take care of my family. And I want all your listeners to know if you think you're weak, you're not. You are very, very strong. And you'll make it through, and you will be fine. And you are so strong, and just hold on to your faith. You'll be okay. You will even achieve more than what you could have achieved before as your older person, as that old, you know, the person you were before the pain. So that is something that I have learned for sure. And then another thing I've learned that I'd like to share with the listeners, and whether they're believers or not, I know maybe not everyone would agree with me, but this is what I have learned, I have seen in my pain. And that's really everything is written beforehand. And by that I mean how Mark liked the number 11. And he had said to me many times to remember 1111. Mark, mom, remember 1111. He would grab my hand and take me to the clock whenever it was 1111 and point to me. I have his jerseys that are number 11 from sports. And he died on September 29th. He turned 11 on September 18th and died on September 29th. He was exactly 11 years, 11 days to the day. And I feel like this was God's signed to me, that this was written beforehand. Not to say that the person driving the car wasn't guilty, or indeed she was guilty. It's just that God had allowed her choices to impact him on that day at that time. And God's sovereignty remains intact at the time of tragedy. It's all written beforehand, it's all in his hands. He knows what will happen. He loves us so very much, and he wants to use our time, our talents for his glory. So give yourself to him at the time of pain and remind yourself that every detail is in his hands and nothing is out of control and nothing is written down.

Michelle 50:09

My mind went to that scripture that we hear so often in Romans 8 28, you know, about how God uses all things for good for those who love him and who are called according to his purpose. But at the moment, in those early weeks and months, it doesn't feel that way. But I'm so glad to be talking to you at this point where God has clarified everything in your mind or clarified so much, and you're able to share it and articulate it so well to people that I know need to hear it. So thank you, Nancy, so much for your openness and honesty in sharing the pain of losing your sweet voice. And again, thank you for agreeing to be my guest on the show today. It's truly been an honor to get to know you and to get to know Mark and Jacob through you and hear how God has sustained you in your grief. And lastly, I just want to say from my heart, happy birthday, sweet Mark. You talked about 1111 and numbers and how nothing is really a coincidence. Well, he would have been 17, and that was the age that my son was when he passed away. So I believe God brought us together. And like I said, it was my honor to meet you and talk to you. And it's my prayer that our boys have met already in heaven, and they're looking down at their mamas as we're talking and sharing their stories for God's glory. So thank you again, Nancy.

Nancy 51:36

Thank you for having me. You have no idea how grateful I am. I really can't find the words. I feel so special to have met you and have met Sean as

Closing Hope For Grieving Parents

Nancy 51:45

well through you.

Michelle 51:47

So, for those of you listening, you may have heard Nancy's story told in the news, the tragic events of September 29th, the painful loss of two beautiful and kind-hearted boys, and then the emotional and lengthy trial that received national attention. But hearing directly from a mother's heart today told a different story. It's one of strength, resilience, and an unwavering trust in things yet unseen. Today reminded us that we're stronger than we think, that God is sovereign over every detail of our lives, and that the pain He entrusts us with is never without purpose. She shared about the power of prayer, the importance of surrounding ourselves with people who truly understand, and the beauty of turning our deepest grief into a mission that honors those we've lost. Nancy helped us understand what it looks like to put the whole world under your feet and fix your eyes on heaven. If you're listening today and you're in the middle of your own grief, I hope Nancy's story reminds you that you will make it through. You're strong. God is faithful, and your story isn't over. Thanks for listening.